Of course the end result is exactly what its supposed to be. Thats what they wrote, thats what they filmed...thats what its supposed to be. If not, they would have wrote or filmed something different.
You guys have morphed your definition into what they are showing us is what happened. Thats a big obvious DUH !
3D i think you are breaking the 4th wall, so to speak and switching in your explanation between being int he lost world or in the writers world.
us the audience in the so called 4th dimension of television are watching the events of 1977. we now know that ben became "this way" (its in quotes cause i do not really yet know what way that is) because of what the losties did, the incident is because of the losties (as we are shown now) the swan, jughead, everything the losties found in 2004 on the island they participated in creating. THATs what always happened.
now, the (eternal) question is: what we saw, is that exactly how it always happened or where they course corrected into situations that resulted in the same island they found in 2004. this may never be answered. or its already been answered. i vaguely remember a podcast wherein darlton said kate and sawyer saving ben was course correction. i may be wrong.
but, when i hear and have heard people talk about TCC i always thought they were talking about doing things in such a way that the results may not and likely will not put the island in the same circumstances as the losties found it in 2004, i.e no swan, no numbers, no plane crash, etc. this is in and of itself a paradox. thus, to me, meaning that what they did in 1977 the past changed the ...present. this is the idea i cannot get my head wrapped around.
but, perhaps, LOCKEING is correct in that we are splitting hairs. also, as much as i love the show and as not dumb as i think i am, i am pretty simplistic when it comes to science.
i just saw butterfly effect over the weekend and in there albeit without any explanation every time he consciousness traveled back in time and changed things the whole present changed, he was downloaded new memories old ones stayed as well and all this caused nose bleeds. is this the multiverse idea you speak of.
it was chester who had the visuals the other day with the ABC, and this seemed to be what was happening in butterfly effect. is this what you speak of?
much as i love the show and as not dumb as i think i am, i am pretty simplistic when it comes to science.
Rach you are far from dumb.
But being simplistic when it comes to science is prety much how the majority of the fans are.
Other than these forums which dont represent the millions of viewers, a show other than a simple explanation will not satisy the majprity of the viewers.
If TPTB knew how this show was going to end roughly when they started it and it was before they researched thoughts on time-travel but knew it was going to go that way than there approach is going to be overall simplistic for the majority of the fans to understand.
In actuality this show really isnt deep seated in time travel as much as it is about the characters and the Island. The time travel to me just shows how the yended up in the circumstances they were. That is how I understand the show to be about
I know I said this before and a few dont agree but it might be TPTB story but they dont own the network and still have to answer to ABC and Disney.
To finalize the show with such intricate storylines of alternate worlds and a revamp of everyones personal story that brought them to the Island will be a major disaster for the story and the writers.
But since I think the questions they answer will be more simplistic than some are theorizing on, it stands to reason I think this way.
I'm a sci fi fan and if they want to go with alt anything or multi pasts or whatever, I'll go along with it. But they have not shown us any event that has happened twice in different ways or any evidence that there are multiple worlds or universes. So for now I will stick with one time-line and WHH.
Maybe they have. Maybe some of the discrepancies aren't production errors.
__________________ Others apart sat on a hill retir'd / In thoughts more elevate, and reason'd high / Of Providence, foreknowledge, will and fate / Fix'd fate, free will, foreknowledge absolute / And found no end in wand'ring mazes LOST. ~ Milton
But being simplistic when it comes to science is prety much how the majority of the fans are.
Other than these forums which dont represent the millions of viewers, a show other than a simple explanation will not satisy the majprity of the viewers.
If TPTB knew how this show was going to end roughly when they started it and it was before they researched thoughts on time-travel but knew it was going to go that way than there approach is going to be overall simplistic for the majority of the fans to understand.
In actuality this show really isnt deep seated in time travel as much as it is about the characters and the Island. The time travel to me just shows how the yended up in the circumstances they were. That is how I understand the show to be about
I know I said this before and a few dont agree but it might be TPTB story but they dont own the network and still have to answer to ABC and Disney.
To finalize the show with such intricate storylines of alternate worlds and a revamp of everyones personal story that brought them to the Island will be a major disaster for the story and the writers.
But since I think the questions they answer will be more simplistic than some are theorizing on, it stands to reason I think this way.
yeah, theories and great time line ideas are all good but...yeah, what he said.
(also meant to highlight the statement about a revamp to the show but it didn't highlight.)
3D i think you are breaking the 4th wall, so to speak and switching in your explanation between being int he lost world or in the writers world.
No, I'm trying to clear you new breed of WHH's up.
us the audience in the so called 4th dimension of television are watching the events of 1977. we now know that ben became "this way" (its in quotes cause i do not really yet know what way that is) because of what the losties did, the incident is because of the losties (as we are shown now) the swan, jughead, everything the losties found in 2004 on the island they participated in creating. THATs what always happened.
Ok, but do you believe this is the ONLY way is happened? Was there ever a time when 1977 played out "without" the lost survivors involved in that time period?
now, the (eternal) question is: what we saw, is that exactly how it always happened or where they course corrected into situations that resulted in the same island they found in 2004. this may never be answered. or its already been answered. i vaguely remember a podcast wherein darlton said kate and sawyer saving ben was course correction. i may be wrong.
Thats what you need to answer. Because if you think it was course corrected, then you really believe in TCC...Time Can Change...and in fact, it did change or was "course corrected". No difference between course correction and can change. They mean the same thing.
but, when i hear and have heard people talk about TCC i always thought they were talking about doing things in such a way that the results may not and likely will not put the island in the same circumstances as the losties found it in 2004, i.e no swan, no numbers, no plane crash, etc. this is in and of itself a paradox. thus, to me, meaning that what they did in 1977 the past changed the ...present. this is the idea i cannot get my head wrapped around.
No it just means time and events can change. It means you believe in course correction. WHH means What happened happened this way and always happened this way.
but, perhaps, LOCKEING is correct in that we are splitting hairs. also, as much as i love the show and as not dumb as i think i am, i am pretty simplistic when it comes to science.
Its not about intelligence...just trying to understand where you guys are. I think you are interpreting to be what we are shown is what happened...and of course, thats what happened or they wouldn't have shown it to us. Its not a dream. WHH means --> Whatever Happpened ALWAYS Happened. As soon as you start telling me well something else might have happened...than time changed.
i just saw butterfly effect over the weekend and in there albeit without any explanation every time he consciousness traveled back in time and changed things the whole present changed, he was downloaded new memories old ones stayed as well and all this caused nose bleeds. is this the multiverse idea you speak of.
it was chester who had the visuals the other day with the ABC, and this seemed to be what was happening in butterfly effect. is this what you speak of?
Multiverse is simply a way to look at these events in your head. Its not necessarily a "reality" from my standpoint...its only a construct. I have no idea whether they will actually get into telling us there are multiple universes. Kinda complex really and not sure I think they will do that. Its simply a way for me to see to two time lines going on at the same time. Because I can't process that in my brain real well. If, however I see one time line in one universe and another time line in a different universe and each one is "independent" well by brain can accept that. Really same thing as the schrodinger cat. The cat is both alive and he is dead at the same time depends on the observer and what choice he makes. Well that is crazy. If however, we look at our choice as different in two different universes...then I can see how he is both alive in one universe and dead in another. If that is more complicated to you, then don't use it as a construct
DAMON LINDELOF: --a little peek into--uh, behind the, uh, the curtain there. "Damon and Carlton", asks Sam Viner from Minnetonka, Minnesota... "I understand that 'whatever happened, happened'. But let me play devil's advocate for a moment. If Jack had worked on Little Ben, and been able to save him, would he have--would he become a different person, like a good guy? Or would he have still grown up to be the monster that he is? Would you not agree that since Jack decided not to save Ben, as he hoped he would die, he really caused the things to happen that he desired to stop? That he indirectly pulled the trigger, blew up the boat, and locked himself in the Hydra?"
CARLTON CUSE: I actually spent a summer in Minnetonka--
DAMON LINDELOF: Heh. Wow.
CARLTON CUSE: --and it was fantastic. Its Lake Minnetonka is beautiful, its beautiful lake, it's, uh, near Minneapolis, a lot of speedboating. You can actually, like, take a boat to bars. And, uh, what was your question? [Laughs] No, uh...
DAMON LINDELOF: The qu--the question is--
CARLTON CUSE: I got the question, I got the question...
DAMON LINDELOF: --"Is it possible that Jack--
CARLTON CUSE: Yeah.
DAMON LINDELOF: "--actually caused Ben to become Ben--
CARLTON CUSE: Well...
DAMON LINDELOF: "--by deciding not to help him?"
CARLTON CUSE: I--I think that basically--the--I think what you--the way you have to think about it is, is there was a course of events, and maybe it was always preordained that Jack would decline to do the surgery, and that that was part of the course of things, in the same way that Kate was destined to take young Ben to the Others. And I think the question of whether these events are kind of intrinsically a part of fate and destiny, or whether they are alterable is a question that the characters are now starting to really wrestle with. You know, "What is changeable, and how do our interactions cause things to change, or just cause a different permutation of the same result?" I mean, Desmond tried to save Charlie many times from dying. He didn't get shot with an arrow, but, on the other hand, Charlie still drowned in the Looking Glass station, so was that a--was that a course of his timeline that he could never alter? I think, y'know, that's a--it's--it's a very good question. I think the show will be addressing your question with more specificity as we move forward.
this sounds to me like course correction is part of WHH and TCC can bring about a different result.
Ah, they are really good at not answering questions aren't they. Just stating the obvious. These guys should become polititions when this is over
The second option they have mentioned, that things can be "changed" (i.e.: "What is changeable, and how do our interactions cause things to change, or just cause a different permutation of the same result?" , is exactly what us alt-realists have been proposing. 'Course Correction' requires that things can be changed, otherwise there would be no need for it. I'm kinda getting a feeling of Dejavu, Skidzy, I'm sure we've had this conversation before.
If your belief in "WHH" involves "different permutation[s] of the same result", then it agrees with my belief in alt-realism.
__________________ Others apart sat on a hill retir'd / In thoughts more elevate, and reason'd high / Of Providence, foreknowledge, will and fate / Fix'd fate, free will, foreknowledge absolute / And found no end in wand'ring mazes LOST. ~ Milton
Ah, they are really good at not answering questions aren't they. Just stating the obvious. These guys should become polititions when this is over
The second option they have mentioned, that things can be "changed" (i.e.: "What is changeable, and how do our interactions cause things to change, or just cause a different permutation of the same result?" , is exactly what us alt-realists have been proposing. 'Course Correction' requires that things can be changed, otherwise there would be no need for it. I'm kinda getting a feeling of Dejavu, Skidzy, I'm sure we've had this conversation before.
If your belief in "WHH" involves "different permutation[s] of the same result", then it agrees with my belief in alt-realism.
i got deja vu too. funny. must be a glitch in the matrix.
see it think its says change is when there is not the same result and no change is when the same result occurs even if in a different permutation. 78 days and counting! weeeeeeeeee
i got deja vu too. funny. must be a glitch in the matrix.
see it think its says change is when there is not the same result and no change is when the same result occurs even if in a different permutation. 78 days and counting! weeeeeeeeee
p.s. i love skidzy as a nickname!!
Phew! Glad you like it. Felt you needed something other than Rachelskid, and I think most of us have been led down the garden path and thought your name reads 'Rachel Skid' rather than 'Rachel's Kid', at some stage
(Edit: hmmm, or how about Skiddo?)
As much as 78 days is closer than a hundred days (for example), it's still too far away for me to start "weeeing" yet. I think I might start letting my self get excited when the count gets below 50 days...
__________________ Others apart sat on a hill retir'd / In thoughts more elevate, and reason'd high / Of Providence, foreknowledge, will and fate / Fix'd fate, free will, foreknowledge absolute / And found no end in wand'ring mazes LOST. ~ Milton
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